Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

I am one of those practitioners who told you that I don't think you know about testing.

I said that because that is my duty. It's not fun, sometimes, begin honest with people, instead of lying to them. Most people choose to be "nice" and to hold back their opinions. But, as I've said many times: this craft is not a tea party.

Instead of complaining about how hurt you are, why don't you address the concerns that I have tried to discuss with you several times? I suspect that you don't do that because you don't believe I'm serious. Well, that's not very nice, is it?

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

I welcome specific advice or critique: "You don't know anything about the XYZ aspect of testing." I'm always learning new things, and am happy to know a direction to go in. When someone tells me I don't know anything about testing, well, I beg to differ, and we can't really go forward with that conversation. I think it is much nicer in this particular case to agree to disagree.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Lovely and enlightened article, Lisa. Your words capture a profound truth - collaboration and teamwork lead to success when we can trust and support one another.

People who disagree - those anti-socials who habitually show disrespect - will not ultimately contribute to their full potential.

One of our greatest challenges as we strive to move our industry to a true science is how we emphasize accenuate the positive and minimize/ignore the negative. The future is ours to mold. We need to take care of it and one another.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

I just read Lisa's sensible post about improving the civility of teams. Being nice has huge benefits: improving software quality and the quality of life of people working together. The piece was based on Lisa's experience at multiple companies, the goals of manifestos, and let's face it, common sense.

What did you read, James? Was Lisa "complaining about how hurt" she was by any individual, let alone you?

Instead of tearing Lisa down in public by rehashing some arguably libelous attack that has nothing to do with Lisa's post, maybe you could tell us what you've observed in various companies. Wouldn't that be a good way to bear your heroic "duty"?

If you can't do that, listen to some Carly Simon first. She has a catchy hit from the 70s called "You're So Vain."

Then apologize to Lisa. In private.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Thanks for this post Lisa. In my previous job, I worked with a team which was not very nice to me starting from the manager deep down. It was hurtful at times that the attacks were very personal rather than professional. In fact, at times, it felt very humiliating.

I took a chance with a few people (so called grumps), called them to a meeting room (individually) and asked for feedback and advice as to where they thought I was lacking. They not only provided feedback, but they were glad that I asked them for feedback. The same people who thought I was stupid started respecting me and guiding me in my work more than ever. I had a point to prove to them that I was good at what they thought I was bad at and took their help as well to prove my point. I became friends with these people though there were a lot of things that we did not agree upon at most times.

I worked with an architect in my last job who was really headstrong about the way he worked and treated testers like they were insects. By working with him very closely, I figured out that the reason for his outburst was that he was not happy with the testers doing their jobs. I thought 'if he had better ideas to make testing better, why not work with him?'. We had a common goal and we were in the same team. It helped to share and learn from him. Some people are temperamental by nature. It takes time for them to understand others. Is it not nice? It depends on each person how he/she wants to take it.

I would say 'Just because someone is not nice to you does not mean we should ignore the good things about that person'. Take the good ones, leave the bad ones. As long as it does not hurt your self respect or dignity, its fine to learn to handle people who are not nice.

Regards,
Parimala Shankaraiah

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

This is the good article...must follow

What a wonderful attitude!

Parimala, I love your attitude and your proactive approach! Thank you for sharing your stories. We can all learn from your examples! You're right, we're all complex individual with good points and bad, it's worth being patient and finding a way to work better together.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Left a job because people weren't nice. I saw a lot of walls going up and even people who gave me hope we could turn things around and get back to the environment I originally joined, gave up. I went back a year later to visit friends and a bright, energetic individual who made my last year there bearable looked tired, broken and cynical.

Every company I've worked for since has a 'just be nice' environment. I think I'm a better person for it.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

This is a "nice" article Lisa. I always walk around with a smile, it is cheap and effective and also contagious. It has helped me a lot in my life and career.

I have worked in a few places where people aren't so nice, you can try taking Parimala approach, however, if it doesn't work, then know when to walk away. As working in a negative can be damaging to your mental health.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Thanks for this post Lisa. Dealing with difficult people is certainly something that many of us deal with. I've tried to view each of these situations as a learning experience. In one particularly negative situation, what I extracted was how not to treat other people. It's still learning and I feel it refreshes my approach to others. I am a lead of a test team and actually had one manager tell me, "Your problem is that you are too nice to your team." I responded, "It's a two way street and I never want to forget that. I respect and appreciate what they do and the value they add. If they are successful, I am successful, and you are successful. In addition, if I ask them to come in at 2 a.m. on a Sunday, they'll do it because they know I genuinely appreciate it - and I'll be here supporting them." I never ask my team to do anything I'm not willing to do. We're all learning and growing from this - or we should be. This manager was dumbfounded - as if it had never occurred to them that this was simply a good way of working with people.

I'm not a psychologist, but it seems having a nicer approach to people, be they team members, peers, or those I report to, simply makes it a more professional atmosphere. This doesn't mean people don't make mistakes and it certainly doesn't mean we're always going to agree. However, there are better ways to discuss this and I think your post reinforces that. General or categorical statements don't really help. The first reply to this post is a great example. The sheer hubris of someone saying it is their duty without realizing that they're not helping you or themselves is, unfortunately, not surprising. It's about as helpful as telling someoen they are an idiot. Subsequent dialogue after that diminishes in value or ceases altogether.

So, respect people, appreciate their efforts (we all want the same basic thing), and be nice to them. You're paid back by a more positive interaction and experience. What's not to like about that?

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

First of all, I find it ironic that a couple comments regarding this very article regarding being nice were... in my humble opinion... not. (Either way, that's neither here nor there... moving on to Lisa's article.)

You do catch more files with honey than, say, bleach. However, if you work in an environment where everyone is solely focused on being nice to one another, I find that it makes it difficult to deliver in a timely manner.

I myself prefer to work in an environment with a healthy balance (e.g. folks are effective in doing the work at hand as well as open to conversation, new ideas, etc.).

Lisa - I wonder if it would be beneficial for the team to talk about the project ahead of time with the appropriate folks involved (Business Users, Dev, PM, QA, etc.) to be pro-active in addressing any potential downstream issues. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that milestones may not be often met, which can lead for everyone feeling the burn come launch time.

In a nutshell, I think that being nice to one another is needed to some degree, however, it shouldn't be the only thing.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Melanie, I think you're right, we can't be walking on eggshells worrying whether we're being nice enough. We have to create a respectful environment so that everyone feels safe, and then if there is something that sounds less than nice, we can give the person who said or did it the benefit of the doubt.

Reading articles about New Years resolutions, it seems to me that it might be better to set small goals: "I'll shout out one of my co-workers today for something I really appreciated", "I'll pick up the phone and call Joe instead of sending an email because we will communicate better that way".

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

*** BEGINNING OF COMMENT ***

I would like to add that I never much cared for the word, 'nice,' to describe folks.

It always seems like that's the generic word folks go to when they give their first impresson of someone that they meet at a party. 'Hey, did you meet so-and-so?' 'Yeah... he was really nice.' [Please also see 'fine.' (For example: 'How's it going?' 'Fine.') 'Nice' really doesn't mean much, on accountah... well... to me, it really doesn't say much.

Is your definition of the word, 'nice,' similar to, say, Dictionary.com's (dictionary.reference.com/browse/nice)? *copied and pasted below for your viewing pleasure*

..........

1. pleasing; agreeable; delightful: a nice visit.
2. amiably pleasant; kind: They are always nice to strangers.

..........

If so, read on.

*** DISCLAIMER: The following is my humble opinion. I am not trying to stirring the turd. ***

First of all, my initial thought is that you are probably a very empathetic and feeling person. You appreciate and enjoy the connections you make. You are very relationship-minded. If you do not receive the same in return, it may seem like someone is not being nice to you. It is hard at times when you may not feel like you are part of a team since you want to have that connection. Realize though that not everyone is like you. And, if I may be so bold, that's okay.

*clearing throat*

Realize that your needs are not necessarily the same as the co-worker you are soliciting help from. If you just show up unannounced when you have a problem and/or question, they could very well be in the middle of something. By you showing up unannounced, you don't allow them to help you when it's convenient for them, resulting in you getting your feelings hurt. You then react, thinking that they're not being nice when, in fact, they're just busy. They react to your reaction and the cycle continues. [And I'm not talking SDLC. *pause* Get it? '... the cycle continues.' 'SDLC = Software Development Life Cycle. *pause* I know... I know... it's not my best stuff. (Never mind.)]

And, hey... here's another thought: Sometimes it ain't you. They could be going through some personal issues that you don't know about. (I'm sure we've all had those times when someone we know has such a strong reaction to someone or something that we find surprising, only to find out that, in most situations, it was something totally different and not you at all.)

Here's a couple of possible solutions:

Possible Solution #1
When you do go over to their desk to talk to them announced, ask them first if it's a good time for them. [Even if you make small-talk (Please see my earlier 'fine' example in paragraph #2. *smiling*) and then ask them anything, that's really not much different than just walking over there and asking them the question. (Some folks may feel that you are being rude and disrespectful of their time by you asking them anything when I'm sure that this is not what you intended to do at all.)]

By asking them first if it's a good time for them, you are requesting something, not demanding it. *pause* I know... I know... the word, 'demanding,' probably got you a little irritated, however, seriously... think about it. By you asking them if it's a good time for them, you're being respectful of their time. Now the onus is up to them to say if it is or not. (Please keep in mind that this still can be hard for some folks but, hey, work with me, sister.) By you asking if they have time for you and they don't, you won't react (e.g. take it personally) by feeling that they're not being nice because you know that they're busy. Then it's just a matter of finding out what time works for them.

Possible Solution #2: Find out the best way to communicate with specific folks. Some folks may prefer a different medium other than face-to-face [e.g. email, IM, (scheduled) meeting, telephone, etc.].

Anyway, that's my two (nice) cents.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Melanie, your ideas sound sensible to me.

Each organization has its own culture, and individuals are highly complex. Whatever works to foster a safe, respectful, learning culture is good.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Several years ago I worked for a boss that was verbally abusive. I put up with it for a couple years only because finding a job is not exactly a fun nor quick proposition. This was ten years ago so the economy was not as bad as it is these days. I'd finally had enough of this inappropriate behavior from my boss and had fortunately found a new position and was able to leave that position.

Now I work in a totally different environment where everyone considers the team first. It's not always consistent because we're human. People make mistakes and have bad days and act grumpy. I believe life is too short to continue working in an environment where people mistreat each other. People mistreat coworkers for all sorts of reasons but it's not worth ruining your health staying in a job where it's pretty obvious that coworkers and/or bosses will not compromise and could care less about the feelings of others. If people have the attitude of my way or the high way and they won't take the highway, you might want to consider looking for another job.

Believe me, a good boss makes all the difference in the world. The boss is the one who determines whether members of a work group work together cooperatively or are at each others throats.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

The description of somebody as "nice" does not mean that the person cannot be tough, demanding and disciplined. It does mean that the person cannot act like a jerk.

For example, when reviewing a document -- even if is a lousy piece of work -- first thank the person for producing it and sending it to your for review. Then point out at least one thing that is good. Only then launch into the comments (aka things that needs to be fixed or improved), in all cases sticking to constructive criticism as opposed to sarcasm, snearing or personal attacks.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

It's difficult enough to garner respect as a tester from the development community, so to have a tester (albeit a well known one Mr. Bach) trash another tester, further diminishes the work we do. Shame on you for making this a public slap in the head. Guess where you say in your website that you want to 'infect people' with the excitement of testing, you meant a negative virus. Pitiful.

Lisa, I worked with you a bit in AT&T some time ago and I fully support your comments. Sometimes we can just be awful to each other and it makes coming to work such a chore and totally de-motivates you. Nice may be a common word, much like 'normal' is. But once you are on the other side of those words, coming back to nice and normal can seem like heaven.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Donna, it's so nice to get back in touch with you here in cyberspace! I really enjoyed working with your team at AT&T. Everyone was professional and enjoyable to work with, even in those high-stress times leading up to a release of a huge and complex project. I have many happy memories from that time. I really do think civility and respect make a huge difference. We may not remember later on the exact things people say to us, but we remember how they made us feel.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

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Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

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Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Having experience as a developer, QA Manager, and IT Manager, my prospective on the comment about testers: "You don't know anything about the XYZ aspect of ...". This is a communication issue more than technical aptitude issue. Developers benefit from seeing products first from inception and getting the opportunity to see how it works. At the same time, they sometimes get focused on the trees instead of understanding the prospective from the forest level and are unable to understand a prospective that has less information available to them than what they benifit from. Yes QA can become technically inferior without the same rigor of developing code on a regular basis. Maybe role reversal is a good idea.
Remember, much of the time QA has to be adaptive, and execute on partial information, is subject to less product information in a shorter time frame than what a developer is aided by. It reasons don't end there, I can go on. Contrary to perception, most of this is not really the fault of a QA.
The first thing I wonder is if a develop needs to make is product more transparent. The first question I have is if QA is having difficulty then will a real user have difficulty. In what way do I need to do a better job at in communicating about my product.

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Bill, you make an excellent point, thank you!

Re: Can’t We Just Be Nice?

Well, the simplicity of it all is that it is just nice to be nice, in general.

Day to day, and particularly in an Agile software development environment we face many challenges on bringing the right solution to our customers on time and under budget. Isn't it better to hae the ability to bring deliverables forth in an environment were the knowledge and contribution of each person is respected and valued. Not only by management, but also by colleagues.

Ultimately is about professionalism and not only about technical knowledge. The inability of any given team member to respect, value and collaborate with any team member will eventually show.

If we fail to comprehend the above and all else fails we should always keep in mind the concept of Karma. The person you are disrespecting and being rude to this week, may end up being your boss the next, or may hold the key to your professional success in the future. Treat others with the respect and decency that you'd like to be treated. And don't forget that disrespect can be manifested in so many ways. My rule of thumb is: If I won't treat or speak to my boss or the President of the company in the manner that I am speaking to a colleague, then I am being disrespectful, and THAT is just not professional.